I am even more convinced than I was when I wrote the last thread that something is going on with men re: relationships particularly.
I know women have changed a lot in the last 30 years. I think men are having some real difficulty with these changes. I think how much build into her relationship giving up who she was, was in my grandma relationship. She is 78, and widowed. Her whole life was geared towards finding a man and making him a home and family, regardless of whether she wanted it or not. My mom gave up much in her relationships , but now in her third marriage seems have carved out a space for her pursuits , her husband who is older ( she is 58 and he is 67) doesn't like her being away for periods of time for her writing workshops or to be with me , but he deals with it. I am so stoked on being me that I would only be in a relationship that enhanced my life, I don't think I need to give up anything, except some independence to be more interdependent.
The guys I am meeting lately are not even wanting to broach a relationship , well into the dating process.( the sex, the companionship, etc.. is fine, it's the intention , the talk, the "relationship" stuff that is avoided) It seems people, couples are on-off more than on now. That it's easier in many ways to be single and have flings than to invest in a relationship. ( it might have always been that way) It seems like a real tough time being had by a lot of people in relationships now, men and women. Women are asking for more than we ever asked for, but very different things than we used to. Men are confused or hurt or angry or bewildered by these new standards.
Men what is going on?
I know women have changed a lot in the last 30 years. I think men are having some real difficulty with these changes. I think how much build into her relationship giving up who she was, was in my grandma relationship. She is 78, and widowed. Her whole life was geared towards finding a man and making him a home and family, regardless of whether she wanted it or not. My mom gave up much in her relationships , but now in her third marriage seems have carved out a space for her pursuits , her husband who is older ( she is 58 and he is 67) doesn't like her being away for periods of time for her writing workshops or to be with me , but he deals with it. I am so stoked on being me that I would only be in a relationship that enhanced my life, I don't think I need to give up anything, except some independence to be more interdependent.
The guys I am meeting lately are not even wanting to broach a relationship , well into the dating process.( the sex, the companionship, etc.. is fine, it's the intention , the talk, the "relationship" stuff that is avoided) It seems people, couples are on-off more than on now. That it's easier in many ways to be single and have flings than to invest in a relationship. ( it might have always been that way) It seems like a real tough time being had by a lot of people in relationships now, men and women. Women are asking for more than we ever asked for, but very different things than we used to. Men are confused or hurt or angry or bewildered by these new standards.
Men what is going on?
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Los Angeles
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 10:11 PMI'm not the end all, be all of relationships ... so I can't say what is going on with everyone. I can only say what's going on with me.
In my limited number of relationships, it seems that I have been asked to give up who I am to make a home (and perhaps eventually) a family whether I wanted it or not. In other words, it seems that the roles (for lack of a better term) are, were or were expected to be reversed. I'm not one who has a 9-5 job. I can't deal with those.
In my last relationship, the female told me once that she wanted me to work when she worked (she had a 9-5), spend the rest of our waking hours together (mostly watching television and eating), then go to bed with her and sleep while she slept. Then it would be get up in the morning and do it all over again. She got mad when I asked if she had bumped her head a bit too hard. She watches at least 6 hours of TV per day. I watch perhaps 6 hours per week ... sometimes not even that.
What I felt she was asking me to do is give up on everything that makes me who I am to be with her ... when she's obviously not happy with who she is. What that means to me is that I am comfortable being who I am. I don't need a woman to complete me. I don't want to get involved in a relationship where I have to give anything up .. at least not who I am. I'm okay with giving up a little independence but I do not want to become interdependent to the point where I can't breathe without her being around.
If this means spending the rest of my life without an SO, I'm okay with that and prepared for it. If I meet someone who can enhance my life and have their life enhanced by me, great. If not, that's fine, too. If I never have children, that's equally all good. -
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 10:37 PMYeah: I would have run like hell from that situation Lovely Day. Being reguested to essentially be diminished or emasculated is not the way to go in my book, or, even having the reverse expectations of her is not alright in the very same book, different chapter.
I don't hang with folks like that and I can't think of any reason why being pussywhipped by facile manipulators would be a positive and maturing growth experience beyond quickly and clearly establishing what isn't a healthy type of relationship to be involved in.
(sorry for the bluntness: I'm eating chocolate again, and well.....!! )
~V~ -
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 4:40 PMYou don't have to apologize for being blunt with me ... I prefer it and fully believe that if everyone were blunt with what they thought or felt in what they said, it would save a lot of time, heartache and miscommunication. Not everyone will be blunt, though. When I am blunt, people often say I have no tact. I say tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic. :) -
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 4:58 PMOh, I can be all of those thing s and more when communicating but sometimes I think it's important to not mince words, and I was simply expressing my opinion...........................under the influence of chocolate.
While I have not had any chocolate today, I "ditto" what I said last night.
Basically (a broader question), what would be the point of being in significant intimate relations with others that diminish and shrink "us" rather than illuminate and expand who and how we are?
More in response to the OP, maybe some folks - both men and women - feel some collective need to just remain single for any number of reasons rather than be involved in relations with other right now that end up obscuring what someone might be needing to go through/process solo.
Maybe all those tacky sentimental songs on the radio have taken their toll and people are tired of living on packets of Nutrasweet.
chez pas.
~V~
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 6:11 AMseems like it's a universal shift, not just with men. I submit for you to consider, that men... and women, are choosing life directions based more on what they consider right for them where they used to choose what society said was right for them. Maybe, like you, the men you meet have the same outlook as you which is "if I have to do without a SO, I'm prepared for that. And maybe subconsciously, just maybe, you are putting the thought into the air that surrounds your conversations?
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..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 1:12 PMFrom several thousands years perspective.. I suspect very little hans changed..
Human's have always been the same, and perhaps will be, for several thousand years more.
What appears to be different is the strategy to get those needs met... across cultures, across genders, generations..etc.. but the needs are the same old needs.
It appears to me, that most of the conflicts come in confusing strategies from needs, confusing observations from interpretations and judgements.. from looking outwards rather than inwards towards what we really need and what others need.
In relating to people's need it's very easy to relate to them and also find creative ways for everyone to get their needs met.
For me, It's hard enough to understand what is going on in contemporary life, not to mention the time we where infants... alot can get lost in translation... so I don't focus to much on the past.
For me, things don't seem that complicated from the perspective of human needs.
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Re: ..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 5:59 PMI get all my need met basically. I do have some yearning for greater intimacy ( physical, emotional, mental ) in my life. I also want to share my day to day with someone special , even more special to me than my mom and my friends.
It does seem complicated, maybe when it's best , it's simple. -
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Re: ..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 6:06 PMYeah: on some days ya just wanna take the LoveBoat to Fantasy Island.
I am so there.
~V~ -
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Re: ..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 6:23 PMMy two cents.... I think that contemporary western culture has become so focused on independence and you shouldn't have to compromise to be happy mantra that relationships and family has kind of gotten put on the back burner. The reasons marriages were more sucessful in earlier days is because people compromised for the good of many. Of course it was much simplier then becasue women only had limited options so they didn't think of it as a compromise to only marry and be a mother. While I think that the inherent expectation of women's compromise for the good of the family is probably a large part of why relationships used to be more solid, I also think that men used to be more willing to compromise also. I know so many men who don't think they should have to curtail their partying and working insane hours for the sake of their relationship. It is men and women, our roles and expectations are all betwixted.
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Re: ..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 6:44 PMwhat does "special" mean for you? Does this refer to a life partner, such as a future spouse?
When I was seaching for my future spouse, I was careful not to ask too much of a simple human, as much as I wouldn't like someone else to expect too much from me, a simple human. I was constantly checking myself for sincerity and keeping myself humble. I seem to be at greater ease when I plan on acquiring qualities I saught in others, by developing them myself and not expect the other person to deliver them to me.
I was happier thinking of what I could offer someone else, than wondering what others would offer me. I also develop a trust that I would attract someone just about compatible with who I am and the differences would be welcome as growing opportunities.
As far as I have glanced your profile, it seem you have the eye on what matters..and I suspect that choosing might be a bigger challenge than finding.. most people don't have much choices in their lives due to illness, poverty, age, physical "attractiveness" and such..
You seem to be gifted in many areas.. I am happy for you!
I agree with you that things do seem complicated, and perhaps they are, but from the basic human nature..from the basic human need level.. there is a simplicity that is rather comforting to me...
for example.. here in this forum.. we are all here for meeting our needs for self expression, creativity, wonder, human connections, community, spiritual growth..joy, peace of mind..etc..
and we are going about it in our own unique signature, with the diversity of our souls and mind.... yet all of us have the same needs and in some ways.. meeting eachother's needs.. perhaps not completely or eternaly.. but in a bite size for some moments...
for this I am greatful to you and everyone here..thanks! -
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Re: ..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 10:24 PMThank you Alex. I have met guys that were pretty sure they wanted to be married and I didn't marry them. I choose to be single in many ways.
It is a difficult balance between asking for what is needed ( or apropriate ) and not asking for enough.
I got kind of crazy with the asking too much in my past relationship. But I was not willing to budge on the monogamy and honesty requests. Those are important for my feeling of safety.
In some ways I choose my way out of that relationship by asking for something he was obvisiously was not able to give, honesty and directness.
Special means a lot of things. One thing is that our relationship has firm boundaries( open , honest agreed upon boundaries ) , is monogamous sexually and we have some shared goals ( like kids and a shared home ) .
I am acquiring the qualities I want in a partner for myself. I need to mostly acquire patients and anger management. I get angry and blame and say mean things. I also need to be with someone who listens to me when I am irratated, before I get livid.
I was thinking earlier tonight. That Maybe I could be happy with a relationship where the sex was good and the money flowed. Maybe. People have done worse certainly. People have also done better. -
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..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 11:05 AM..your appreciation nurishing.. i am at awe that amoungs strangers, we feel rather free and open to discuss such personal issues. There is a sense of equinimity that I appreciate in these forums and in yourself.
Looking back at my mindset when I was choosing a lifetime partner, I am realizing that knowing oneself is critically important..because you understand who best complements you.. it sounds like you have a good amount of selfawareness (recognizing your needs for safety emotional or other, and need for understanding life with minimal confusion as with need for honesty).. and I am hopeful that you will choose wisely...
It seems like a pity that when we fall in love with someone, things seem to get cloudy and we often don't see flags of warnings.. we tend to get caught up in the illusion of perfection and we seem to come out of those illusions once we have made big comitments and we are left to soft them out later.. Perhaps there is something more grander that is going on.. but I can look at my past and see areas where was blinded or belittle warning signs of conflicts to come in the future.. but perhaps those are best left in the future, when a solid bonds makes a foundation to bridge those big differences...
For sure, some things will be better than expected and some will not.. and since we are constantly growing (let's hope) the challenges will still come our way..but so will the rewards and joy, I think. -
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Re: ..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 11:19 AMThere is a wonderful little book by Robert A Johnson called "We" Understanding the Psychology Of Romantic Love....the tale of Tristan and Isolde...and our projections onto each other...great read... -
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Re: ..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 11:27 AMIt might (or might not) be worth noting that there is in some sense a limitation in always framing these types of questions of what's going on with "the other" (insert whatever) always seemingly in the context of romantic relations.
What about something like, what's going on with men/women/eunichs/etc in the world and within themselves, as individuals?
~V~ -
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Re: ..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 7:22 PMBut I would not need to ask you the question What is going on with me ( or women or anything I embody ) ? I know the answer to that. We ask questions of other people. Asking questions of ourselves is just thinking. And I can do that all the time. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: ..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 10:09 PMI must appologize for my confusing use of tense.. I often write "you" when refering to "one" or "anyone" or "each person" etc..
the question of asking of "thyself" as a tool for understanding others is important in this sense:
"our analysis of others tend to be a reflection of our needs and values".
so knowing our needs and our values event by event, we are apt to know others better.
For example, One might see another as "needy" if the other emails them 6 times a day and one do not want more than one email from them; but one can see the other as "insensitive" if they email 3 times a day when one wants alot more emails from them.
I have this tendency to not checking enough of myself, my needs and my values, when observing others to try to understand them.
..by the way.. i feel glad to read that you know what is going on with you as the woman you embody.. :) -
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Re: ..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Wed, February 13, 2008 - 3:44 AMWhile we do live in a world of over 6 billion people and it is critical to understand our fellow humanoids and our connections to them, I think to constantly reframe our relations in almost exclusively romantic terms is IMO, ultimately a limiting sentiment for our understandings to be based upon. In many cases this feels like a pervasive and inescapable narrative running through our head and fueled by various media in popular culture rather than something that comes from a more deeply felt as well as better thought out place within ourselves. Perhaps our respective desires for those types of relations - fed by other winds so to speak - kind of cloud the likelihood of coming to a greater and deeper understand of "other" as well as ourselves.
While the preceding paragraph may appear a little arid and analytical, I hope others can see the point I am trying to make.
The soundtrack to life is not a cheap pop song.....except on a warm friday night in the summertime and she's wearing a summer dress in a faraway place and she digs you and every thing is going smashingly and she's really soft and loving and sweet and strong, and well, the most beautiful creature in the universe as the stars look down from on high, giving a nod to something else within us.
~V~
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Re: ..knowing thyself if of upmost importance...
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 7:49 PMthanks for the reading tip.. i will look into that book.. sounds very insightful.
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Re: ..I suspect very liitle has really changed...
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 3:45 PMI don't think much has changed either. Maybe it's the perception of "demands" and emasculation being on many of the magazine shelves, in films, in sitcoms, in every day conversation. Imagine a "sex and the city" in the 50's....
I think there are certain things that we actually need. Certain things that we think we need. Certain things we want. And certain things we (all we - both women and men) should never compromise on in early stages - they usually end up in ending later.
Those things are, honesty, integrity, agreement on mono/poly/etc, desire for parenthood, shared responsibilities, mutual respect, and loads of laughter. Beyond that...it's all whipped cream n cherries.
Ya know those lists women have? Throw the fuckers out if they are 100 pts long or something. Seriously. Unless you are perfect, and no one is, it's just mental masturbation of expectations. One that may rule out the love of your life and the person whom you are *really* seeking and is perfect for you.
Not for aschleigh - you'll find him. Possibly when you aren't lookin :-) I sure did.
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 3:49 PMRight now I'm blaming it on where you live.
On the east coast, I've found men more interested in forming relationships with commitments than women. Maybe it's in the water?? -
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Re: What is going on with men part 2?
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 4:50 PMI recently found a great guy. He wants monogamy, parenthood, honesty, integrity in our relationship. So we are on the same page in the important ways . It's new so we'll see what happens. But I won't compromise on the big stuff.
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