ok, though i understand the premise of other posts, i also sense a slight imbalance, so, lets talk about women shall we?
first, they dont seem to know what they want in a partner. actually they do; they want it all, but only in the correct portions and at the correct times. we're supposed to be manly and strong, but also sensitive and conscious. but not (necessarily) at the same time. you have to guess at the timing guys, and if youre wrong youre either a neanderthal or a wimp, basically screwed either way. we're also supposed to be bad boys, but committed and domestic too (if you dont contribute equally in the kitchen, youre just not a mod man), again not necessarily at the same time, but maybe if you can time it just right... nahh, wont happen. and if we do manage to pull off some kind of balance in ourselves between masculine and feminine - which seems to be the new ideal - and can love unconditionally and be self sufficient and honoring of individual paths, then we have a problem with commitment (while still having to keep that manly, provider, bad boy thing going). Even the empaths among us get so many mixed messages (women want primal man, but also evolved, sensitive man, so which is it?) that we're often on a slippery slope.
so i dont think its just about whats going on with MEN, i think its about whats going on with RELATIONSHIP... the models are changing, and its calling for both sexes to make some adjustments, often in long held beliefs, which can take time, and patience, and understanding... honestly i think we all have within us what it takes to have better relationships than we've ever had before... just going to take a little getting used to, a little flexibility and understanding and encouragement on both sides of the fence...
first, they dont seem to know what they want in a partner. actually they do; they want it all, but only in the correct portions and at the correct times. we're supposed to be manly and strong, but also sensitive and conscious. but not (necessarily) at the same time. you have to guess at the timing guys, and if youre wrong youre either a neanderthal or a wimp, basically screwed either way. we're also supposed to be bad boys, but committed and domestic too (if you dont contribute equally in the kitchen, youre just not a mod man), again not necessarily at the same time, but maybe if you can time it just right... nahh, wont happen. and if we do manage to pull off some kind of balance in ourselves between masculine and feminine - which seems to be the new ideal - and can love unconditionally and be self sufficient and honoring of individual paths, then we have a problem with commitment (while still having to keep that manly, provider, bad boy thing going). Even the empaths among us get so many mixed messages (women want primal man, but also evolved, sensitive man, so which is it?) that we're often on a slippery slope.
so i dont think its just about whats going on with MEN, i think its about whats going on with RELATIONSHIP... the models are changing, and its calling for both sexes to make some adjustments, often in long held beliefs, which can take time, and patience, and understanding... honestly i think we all have within us what it takes to have better relationships than we've ever had before... just going to take a little getting used to, a little flexibility and understanding and encouragement on both sides of the fence...
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SF Bay Area
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 8:12 PMThis is why I eat chocolate compulsively and sleep with Lesbians. I am trying to channel more detailed instructions from the mothership regarding this matter.
I will get back to you.
~V~ -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 8:20 PMAs women get older and wiser we know what me want more. The person who says it best that I have found is David Dieda, he writes a lot about men and women and relationships. I think women want that powerful connection, to be loved and to feel safe with their man of choice. Men may want that too.
I think that it is time to get honest, like self-honest. I want a bunch of stuff, mostly I want to be loved. That includes monogamy and commitment for me.
I often think of a quote by Abraham Lincoln " most people are as happy as they decide to be"
I want a man ( who after going through some shit) has decided to do what it takes to be happy. That's wisdom, it takes some time to accrue. -
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Wisdom is sexy
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 8:51 PMFirst Off... Before I say anything really cogent, I think we all need an update from Verseau. If there is a connect to the Mother-Ship...we need it now more than ever. I can really identify with what Jeff is saying in this original post. It speaks directly to the balancing act that many of us men experience in our daily lives. Realizing that the rules/roles have changed is the easy part. Realizing what they have changed into is infinitely harder. It speaks directly to why I am taking a break from romantic relationships at this time, (which subsequently leads to celibacy, which in turn leads to irritability which leads to...don't get me started...). The hiatus from intimacy was brought on by feeling that I was being twisted up like a pretzel trying to conform to several mutually exclusive "wants/needs" from the women in my life. To be Tough AND Sensitive, Forcefull AND Gentle, the Strong Silent Type who really likes to have long talks...etc...
Encompassing all these dichotomys requires the wisdom mentioned by Aschliegh (sp). Having the inner wisom to know who you are as opposed to who you are supposed to be is the key. Wisdom is sexy neh?
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 8:58 PMexactly Jeff....there is no us or them..it's both of us..TOGETHER and as individuals playing out roles with each other in order to heal and transform the old so we can have truly what our heart desires without all the old in the way..as we accept forgive and embrace each person each experience I think we come closer to ourselves and to each other...
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 1:50 PMI've read some Deida and run his ideas past some women friends of mine, who pretty much fall all over themselves in agreement.
The idea that sicks with me is how women are like life; stormy and glorious and multifaceted and wildly unpredictable. Understanding this, men can act as the riverbanks that hold the river; a container for all that life energy. Well, we can try anyway. I think just being able to STAY with a woman's many, many fluctuations might be what, for her, constitutes love. And given what she offers, that seems like a pretty fair trade.
(Of course, it helps if guys don't take themselves too seriously in all this.) -
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Women, Men, Domination, and Enculturated exaggeration of Sexual Dimorphism
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 2:23 PMDeida just panders to the people who want the generalizations to be 'true rules' so that they can try to have control over their lives with sexist dimorphism.
Women are all different, except the ones who are afraid to be themselves and choose to become sheeple. This is so for men. Yes, there is a difference in brain chemistry, but no neuroscientist [except old-school Maturationists] will tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is all inherent. The brain is much more plastic that once thought, and patterns can be trained in. We are influenced by our elders and take on their crap as well as their wisdom.
Don't believe the sexist hype. People can be very different than the stereotype and pidgeon-holing them limits both you and them. -
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Re: Women, Men, Domination, and Enculturated exaggeration of Sexual Dimorphism
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 2:38 PMThe funny thing about generalizations is that they are often drawn from identifiable and seemingly consistent patterns. They are often a popular starting point for conversations which many will say, oh, but that's not me, I am so unique and special and insightful and different which then leads into a different trajectory of the dialogue where hopefully one can both see the consistencies in the generalizations about gender and how that is true within themselves, as well as how thoses types of statements might differ and not reflect their own understandings and experience. Of course there are dangers in relying on both types of perceptions: Generalizations can't be applied to individuals responsibly and the individual's experience and their expression can't be a totalizing projection of their truth or reality that is applicable in broader terms.
I do like Deida for the most part, even though he paints in broad and blunt strokes. But I also like how other people paint more nuanced understandings.
~V~ -
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Re: Women, Men, Domination, and Enculturated exaggeration of Sexual Dimorphism
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 4:04 PM"Of course there are dangers in relying on both types of perceptions: Generalizations can't be applied to individuals responsibly and the individual's experience and their expression can't be a totalizing projection of their truth or reality that is applicable in broader terms. "
Indeed.
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Re: Women, Men, Domination, and Enculturated exaggeration of Sexual Dimorphism
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 2:56 PM>Deida just panders to the people who want the generalizations to be 'true rules' so that they can try to have control over their lives with sexist dimorphism. <
I don't know if he's pandering, but i agree with the problem inherent in taking ANY model too seriously. What I appreciate is being able to step back and look at an interpersonal conflict through a helpful lens; I'm not saying that the lens _is_ the situation. He speaks in a kind of metaphor, seems to me, which may be applied, gently, to smooth the way.
Bottom line, I think everyone wants to be heard, and appreciated.
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:12 AMThanks Jeff, I think you really hit the nail on the head here. We are all working through stuff and learning new ways to be in relationship with others, and it's important to work together on it, rather than seeing it as an us vs. them scenario. Thanks for making a point of it.
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Go Deep
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:47 AMHey Jeff. :)
I think the next question to ask is in what environment are you discovering these women. Personally, I see the stereotype in both men and women in groups that I prefer to not hang out with. There are leagues of people who take their cues from the media and through standard sheeple. Those people who merely nod their heads in agreement and do not question the dysfunction of the whole thing are not very appealing to me, personally. There is also an aire of want for control by asserting sweeping generalizations like 'all men are sexual predators', 'all men just want sex', ' all women are gold-diggers', 'all women use sex to get what they want', etc. We all want to have an understanding of what surrounds us, so sometimes making an observation [accurate or not] feels comfortable. I prefer to try to find people who do not seek safety in generalizations. They're hard to find, but they're out there.
What's the trade off? You can't create a custom chick or dude. You can pretty much bet that if you are looking for the 'cover-girl' type, you're going to have to move toward those who wish to market themselves to the masses rather than those who wish to be more discerning of self, other and relationship. It is good to ask yourself what you really want, what is the most important thing on your relational shopping list and gun for that. If it is merely sex or arm-candy, then that's what you will find. If you are looking for someone who will pro-actively work to find a nurturative symbiosis, go to places where it might be possible to find them. FWIW a bar, club, or rave are not places where such people are in high population density.
FWIW, if you sit on the surface, all you will see is surface animals. If you want deep, you have to go deep yourself. -
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Re: Go Deep
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 11:41 AMFirstly I am feeling that Iam the person I have always wanted to meet..that is where it starts and ends...only then am I ready enough for another...and I do beleive those who share the same vibration will through the magnetic pull meet...no matter where Iam or how little aware people Iam around..bcos it is easy to assume that they are like this and Iam like that....not true...
Looking in from the outside can be illusory...look from the inside out...and we shall see what we experience as truth and see beyond any separations...
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Re: Go Deep
Sun, February 10, 2008 - 2:15 PMPaula: your posts here are great! :)
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Re: Go Deep
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 3:57 PM"FWIW, if you sit on the surface, all you will see is surface animals. If you want deep, you have to go deep yourself."
I am Printing this on my wall to show both my girl and guy friends when they call about relationships..... -
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Re: I am Printing this...
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 12:38 PMMost magazines suck IMO, regardless of how gender specific content-wise they might be.
But somebody sure buys them at the check-out counter at the grocery store.
~V~ -
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Re: I am Printing this...
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 1:40 PMthis is regarding 'I'm printing this?'
Can you clarify?
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 8:03 PMJust speculating .... but is it possible that men and women went through this same type of thing 40 or so years ago ... only they called it "free love" because there weren't nearly as many diseases to get? Of course, now there is more outspokenness about it, more media coverage and since there has been women's lib and other things, it's much more socially acceptable for a woman to "do her own thing". What do you all think? -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 10:25 PMI think there are patterns of time that occur in our world and species history where there are interrelated events that sort of feed off of each other, creating subtle as well concussive paradigm shifts in how we go about doing things and an expansion in the nature and capacity of our individual and collective consciousness'. I think these ripple through our lives and society in sometimes imperceptable ways and in other ways like a tidal wave.
As our societies advance, so do we in some ways, and I think the phenomenal swirl of change we live in is increasing. I will not regurgitate all the theories running around explaining this perception that is becoming more obvious and widespread. I think people can infer a trajectory of inquiry I am alluding to.
This is all a roundabout way of saying yes, among many things, our gender constructs are shifting and evolving at an increasing rate.
That is my understanding of some things in a very small nutshell.
~V~ -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 11:10 PMof course there are 1111 members in this tribe and it is almost 11:11, and if I had seen both this evening at the same time, a giant hole would have opened up in my room and 10 million dollars would have flown out as well as some babes bearing chocolate, and then I would have had to move someplace more preferable with the cash and with the babes but since I did not see these things simultaneously, it ain't gonna happen and I can't pretend that it did.
Close: no cigar.
Maybe tomorrow.
I think you all know where I'm coming from.
Nama......................................(no I ain't gonna say it.)
:P
~V~
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 8:21 AMthanks to all for taking this post in the spirit it was intended. that in itself tells me a lot about this tribe. -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 1:01 AMJeff, I have met a lot of men who seem to want it all ,too. After women's lib days it is worse than ever, now we are supposed to work, bring home money, support the artistic aspirations of "sensitive men" busy discovering themselves and be full of understanding if boring things like work get in the way of their creativity, while at the same time have all the same womanly qualities such as being nurturing (money- and otherwise), forgiving, endlessly patient, motherly but not overbearing, take more or less responsiblity for the lion's share of housework and childcare, but never loose our cheerful gentle-natured self and be ready to be emotionally supportive and refreshing after long days of killing the beasts and bringing home the bounty ourselves... And of course not demand being given credit for it.
have fun with the chocolate, Verseau -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 7:42 AMtouche' astrid! -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 9:18 AMthanks, Jeff. : )
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 12:07 AMPerhaps it has nothing to do with male or female. Could it be that we are conditioned (brainwashed) by the media, barbie dolls and society to believe that the "other" will become some idealized prince or princess finally arriving to our deep calling. The call to make all our wounds and wrongs right. To love us unconditionally, filling us with a sense of unending acceptance and validation? Setting it up with high expectations from the get go. Then when our illusions are met with, "wait a minute...aren't you suppose to read my every thought, want and need...why aren't you doing what you're suppose to, so I can feel OK, so I can feel I matter," we are disappointed. Could it be we have lost sight of that which we should truly appreciate...the fact that we can care and love another and that we can be loved and cared for simply through connection? Perhaps it is back to basics. -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 9:54 AMI like what you said, Allure. I agree that it is hard to tell how much of the differences in behaviors between men and women are simply generated and perpetuated by media images. How much of our behavior is programmed into us by external stimuli and how much is hard-wired by genetics (X and Y chromosomes)?
BTW, i also observe that women in our culture are trained to be more dependent, and men are trained to be more independent. This sets up problems in relationships between members of those two groups.
I believe each of us humans needs to get our emotional needs met from a variety of sources, including self, partner, friends, family, and the natural world. When we depend on one source for love and comfort, we not only burden that person, but we limit ourselves. It is good to keep our support resources vast and varied.
Sometimes I can feel emotional support from a stranger, someone i run into at a party or in my travels that i find connection with in a given moment, just a surprise encounter which somehow fills me up, fills my need for comfort or connection. This is a valuable experience for me because it makes me feel less dependent on partners, friends, family, etc., and helps me remember not to be needy just because someone in my inner circle is familiar. It helps me remember that being in the moment is powerful for me, appreciating this moment of connection with a perfect stranger is a pleasure.
However, there is something about the familiarity of a loved one that comforts us. It's almost like the familiarity is another beat in the rhythm, that womb-like heartbeat that is relaxing and reassuring. I enjoy the support of someone who knows me well. There is something very comforting about being loved by a partner which is different from being loved by anyone else. -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 11:27 AMI remember standing in line at the supermarket and happened to see the mags out the corner of my eye...I noticed the mens mags were all about fishing and about being his best out there esp outdoors/career and the women's mags were all about relationships and how to keep your man happy...
funny how we think alot of things have changed yet those old archetypes keep popping up again and again... -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 11:46 AMIndeed. I like fishing and the outdoors, yet want my partner to be happy.
Hmmmm...is there a magazine for me? -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 11:51 AMYeah, I've long been disheartened looking at those magazines at the checkout stand.
Somebody's buying them.
~V~ -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Tue, February 12, 2008 - 1:00 AMNot too bad, Gistenz. When I look at the American magazine racks her in Tokyo, men's mags are all about computers, economy and sports, and the women's magazines are all about clothes, make up, how to loose weight and how to have more orgasms...I get the feeling, they are trying to dumb us down to an IQ of 90 now... Someone give me something to read, argh !
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 4:02 PMgliSTenz - you forgot the men's mags on gadgets, chicks in nearly nothing, "hot" lists, and money. Ocassionally some political stuff.
Women's mags universally suck. Jane magazine was one of the few I used to read because it wasn't some cosmo-like cheesefest. That, and a slew of others....mostly those geared technically to men. I found they had better writing ;-)
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 9:17 PM>>I believe each of us humans needs to get our emotional needs met from a variety of sources, including self, partner, friends, family, and the natural world. When we depend on one source for love and comfort, we not only burden that person, but we limit ourselves. It is good to keep our support resources vast and varied.<<
Good point, I think the healthiest support system is one that is piecemealed from different individuals in our lives and from different places. I don't believe 1 single person in our life can be all and fulfill all. But we sure do get trapped in that illusion when we first fall in love. The labels sure reflect that doesn't it: The One, Mr. or Mrs. Right, My one & only...etc.
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 3:53 PMJeff - I think you are absolutely right with the above.
Women want it all.
All at the same time.
Or at a whim.
Some have lists pages long of "qualities" they seek.
Some are socialized early on to essentially seek the "old" model, told by current society what they "should" want, and flip between the both unconsciously.
It's the extremes of neanderthal or wimp. No different than the madonna or whore concept women have dealt with for quite awhile. There's definitely an imbalance in the air for many but I think there's hope since it is about the RELATIONSHIP. -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 11:22 PM<extremes of neanderthal or wimp. No different than the madonna or whore concept >
that's interesting. hadn't thought of that.
i'm a woman.... i don't understand women at all. or men. or people generally, and certainly not relationships!
hah! quagmire... -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 6:06 PMI think I have to agree that it comes down to "becoming the person you most want to meet." I know I have had my fair share of expecting too much from someone else, from the men in my life, and being angry at them for not giving me what I wanted. Then I had to really look and see at what expectations I had of them, and then to try and drop those and instead see the person for who he is as a human being, and why it was impossible for him to give me what I wanted, for where he was in his life and what he is going through and what he needs. Maybe this is especially true of younger people when we are all lost and confused and don't know what we are doing. And I found once I could do this, drop these expectations, then I could really see what is the right kind of relationship between me and him. Maybe it is not really a partnership even if there is love and sexual connection there. And then I have to ask myself, what does love really mean? If I really love this person then what is my role? Its not fair for me to put expectations on this person when they cannot fulfill them. Instead I have to work on myself and how I can become more empowered in living true to my deepest values in my life.
I think the container of a 'partnership' as often the only container to hold love between a man in a woman in this culture is too small. Because sometimes you will love a man, but its clear that this is not a partnership, that is not the right relationship to help both you and him grow in the way you are meant to grow. But still, do you then have to withdraw your love from him because it is not everything? We need new models for love, models which allow us to let go of expectations which do not help each other function. And as human beings to be embedded in community where we have human contact and are seen and known in a human way. Unfortunately that is not how most of us live in this culture, maybe even on this earth.
Speaking of which. . . Come to Summer University in Tamera, Portugal and learn more about these things!
I completely did not intend to throw that in there, but my line of thought led me there.
Blessings,
Amanda
tamera.org
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 6:46 AMSince we're all in agreement that both men and women have unrealistic and inhuman demands placed on our outward beings, maybe it's not us that's changing, but the conscious relating that is seeing the shift. It's that wacky time in evolution where we become self-sufficient and whole without finding our missing piece.. then find someone to "companion" with so we have a mirror to look at once in a while. If we as individuals can shake the notion that our partner needs to be anything but what they are.. we can have it all. Albeit lifelong monogamy is an unnatural notion, our partnering skills are determined by our self management skills over our lifetimes. Oh, and by the way, wer'e all scared shitless by the notion that our party may end if our economy turns, religions become myths, partners cheat or leave us, we have to be responsible, etc. which leaves us to our defenses..
usually our own defense mechanisms are "whats going on with women". -
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Re: whats going on with WOMEN (part one of many)
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 12:37 PMHere's a question I have about women. I find "the problem" increasingly really irritating.
Why would otherwise intelligent, thoughtful women (or even just EveryWoman) be so prone to blathering chit chat that just pings all over the place subject matter wise, often seemingly without end or self-editing, or even much interaction with another person in an alleged conversation? The content is most often simply meaningless.
I mean, shooting the breeze is fine and dandy, but making a career of incessantly verbalizing nothing of any merit is both disappointing and incredibly tedious to deal with for me.
Doesn't matter from where it comes: Mother, Lover, Officemate; Roommate; Friend...
I'm just not able to be tolerant of it anymore. If I can, I will simply walk out of the room if it goes on too long.
Now, the opposite behavior in many men is equally distressing: saying nothing in a minimally verbal, non-expansive fashion and the proverbial "conversation" about sports and the weather leaves me limp. I don't hang out with men like that. Never have.
But I can't help but think that some men's silence is in response to inane female blathering.
blah blah blah.
jesus: maddening.
~V~
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